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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2006, 06:36 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4
Default Prenuptial Agreement

Hi,
I married an US citizen. After 2 years he initiating the divorce because of other woman. Now he is telling me that I signed a prenuptial agreement when we've been preparing documents for my green card. It was about 20 pages and I just signed them all, but I did not know the prenup was there, I did not read it and I do not know what was in it. It was a fraud!
Is this document legal?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2006, 06:41 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by banga


Is this document legal?
Yes. Next time, before you sign something, you'll read it first.

Let me ask you this; if you sign a vehicle purchase contract, or an insurance contract, and you didn't read the contract before you signed, is that fraud? No.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2006, 06:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4
Talking prenup

Oh member...
Look what I found on www.public.findlaw.com

10 top reasons a premarital agreemant may be invalid:

4. YOU DIDN'T READ IT. If your spouse-to-be puts a bunch of papers in front of you, including a premarital agreement, and asks you to sign them quickly, the premarital agreement may not be enforceable if you sign it without reading it.

Yeah!
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2006, 07:21 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by banga
Oh member...
Look what I found on www.public.findlaw.com

10 top reasons a premarital agreemant may be invalid:

4. YOU DIDN'T READ IT. If your spouse-to-be puts a bunch of papers in front of you, including a premarital agreement, and asks you to sign them quickly, the premarital agreement may not be enforceable if you sign it without reading it.

Yeah!

Nice try. One problem, though. How are you going to prove that you didn't read it? Merely saying, "I didn't read it!" isn't enough.

You see, the burden of proof is on you! The evidence of a signature goes to the fact that you did, in fact, read it before you signed it.

Good luck.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2006, 11:50 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Default Not so fast

It may depend on what state you live in. Here is CA, parts of prenups aren't valid unless the person who it is being enforced against (that would be you) was represented by an attorney. Doesn't sound like you had legal represenation when you signed it, so there may be some wiggle room. I recommend you bring the prenup to an attorney and find out if you have a case.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2006, 01:54 PM
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Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy
It may depend on what state you live in. Here is CA, parts of prenups aren't valid unless the person who it is being enforced against (that would be you) was represented by an attorney. Doesn't sound like you had legal represenation when you signed it, so there may be some wiggle room. I recommend you bring the prenup to an attorney and find out if you have a case.

Not so. Representation can be waived; i.e., it's not a prerequisite. Certain Waivers can be placed in the Prenuptial Agreement. Can our writer prove all the elements, as follows? Can our writer prove that she didn't waive representation, as follows?

Here are the controlling code sections of California Family Law:

1611. A premarital agreement shall be in writing and signed by both
parties. It is enforceable without consideration.


1612. (a) Parties to a premarital agreement may contract with
respect to all of the following:
(1) The rights and obligations of each of the parties in any of
the property of either or both of them whenever and wherever acquired
or located.
(2) The right to buy, sell, use, transfer, exchange, abandon,
lease, consume, expend, assign, create a security interest in,
mortgage, encumber, dispose of, or otherwise manage and control
property.
(3) The disposition of property upon separation, marital
dissolution, death, or the occurrence or nonoccurrence of any other
event.
(4) The making of a will, trust, or other arrangement to carry out
the provisions of the agreement.
(5) The ownership rights in and disposition of the death benefit
from a life insurance policy.
(6) The choice of law governing the construction of the agreement.
(7) Any other matter, including their personal rights and
obligations, not in violation of public policy or a statute imposing
a criminal penalty.
(b) The right of a child to support may not be adversely affected
by a premarital agreement.
(c) Any provision in a premarital agreement regarding spousal
support, including, but not limited to, a waiver of it, is not
enforceable if the party against whom enforcement of the spousal
support provision is sought was not represented by independent
counsel at the time the agreement containing the provision was
signed, or if the provision regarding spousal support is
unconscionable at the time of enforcement. An otherwise
unenforceable provision in a premarital agreement regarding spousal
support may not become enforceable solely because the party against
whom enforcement is sought was represented by independent counsel.


1613. A premarital agreement becomes effective upon marriage.


1614. After marriage, a premarital agreement may be amended or
revoked only by a written agreement signed by the parties. The
amended agreement or the revocation is enforceable without
consideration.


1615. (a) A premarital agreement is not enforceable if the party
against whom enforcement is sought proves either of the following:
(1) That party did not execute the agreement voluntarily.
(2) The agreement was unconscionable when it was executed and,
before execution of the agreement, all of the following applied to
that party:
(A) That party was not provided a fair, reasonable, and full
disclosure of the property or financial obligations of the other
party
.
(B) That party did not voluntarily and expressly waive, in
writing, any right to disclosure of the property or financial
obligations of the other party beyond the disclosure provided
.
(C) That party did not have, or reasonably could not have had, an
adequate knowledge of the property or financial obligations of the
other party
.
(b) An issue of unconscionability of a premarital agreement shall
be decided by the court as a matter of law.
(c) For the purposes of subdivision (a), it shall be deemed that a
premarital agreement was not executed voluntarily unless the court
finds in writing or on the record all of the following:
(1) The party against whom enforcement is sought was represented
by independent legal counsel at the time of signing the agreement or,
after being advised to seek independent legal counsel, expressly
waived, in a separate writing
, representation by independent legal
counsel
.
(2) The party against whom enforcement is sought had not less than
seven calendar days between the time that party was first presented
with the agreement and advised to seek independent legal counsel and
the time the agreement was signed
.
(3) The party against whom enforcement is sought, if unrepresented
by legal counsel, was fully informed of the terms and basic effect
of the agreement as well as the rights and obligations he or she was
giving up by signing the agreement, and was proficient in the
language in which the explanation of the party's rights was conducted
and in which the agreement was written. The explanation of the
rights and obligations relinquished shall be memorialized in writing
and delivered to the party prior to signing the agreement. The
unrepresented party shall, on or before the signing of the premarital
agreement, execute a document declaring that he or she received the
information required by this paragraph and indicating who provided
that information
.
(4) The agreement and the writings executed pursuant to paragraphs
(1) and (3) were not executed under duress, fraud, or undue
influence, and the parties did not lack capacity to enter into the
agreement
.
(5) Any other factors the court deems relevant.


Can you prove any of this? What parts CAN you prove, and not merely saying that "it didn't happen."
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2006, 02:02 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Default Did you read the code you cited?

1612 (c) Any provision in a premarital agreement regarding spousal
support, including, but not limited to, a waiver of it, is not
enforceable if the party against whom enforcement of the spousal
support provision is sought was not represented by independent
counsel at the time the agreement containing the provision was
signed, or if the provision regarding spousal support is
unconscionable at the time of enforcement.

So she was not represented by an attorney. That means (in CA at least) any provision in a prenup re: spousal support is invalid. The rules may be different in your state, and may apply to other provisions in the prenup. That's why you should meet with an attorney to find out if you have a case.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2006, 03:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy
1612 (c) Any provision in a premarital agreement regarding spousal support, including, but not limited to, a waiver of it, is not
enforceable if the party against whom enforcement of the spousal
support provision is sought was not represented by independent
counsel at the time the agreement containing the provision was
signed, or if the provision regarding spousal support is
unconscionable at the time of enforcement.

So she was not represented by an attorney. That means (in CA at least) any provision in a prenup re: spousal support is invalid. The rules may be different in your state, and may apply to other provisions in the prenup. That's why you should meet with an attorney to find out if you have a case.

You said, "So she was not represented by an attorney." How do you know this? At this point, we don't know WHERE the papers were given to her; e.g., at a law office or at the kitchen table.

Additionally, how do you know this question was in regard to "spousal
support." Maybe, it's about their possessions. Maybe it's about their Will. Maybe, maybe, maybe!

Also, how is she going to prove that an attorney didn't give his/her "blessing" to all of this?

The only part I agree with in your post is, "you should meet with an attorney to find out if you have a case." There are too many open questions.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2006, 11:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 146
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westside Law
You said, "So she was not represented by an attorney." How do you know this? At this point, we don't know WHERE the papers were given to her; e.g., at a law office or at the kitchen table.

Additionally, how do you know this question was in regard to "spousal
support." Maybe, it's about their possessions. Maybe it's about their Will. Maybe, maybe, maybe!

Also, how is she going to prove that an attorney didn't give his/her "blessing" to all of this?

The only part I agree with in your post is, "you should meet with an attorney to find out if you have a case." There are too many open questions.
Yes, she needs to meet with an attorney. I believe it will be up to the enforcer of the prenuptial agreement to show that she was represented by an attorney. My guess is that she was not, but that's a question to the original poster. What I know is that prenuptial agreements are often broken and courts (especially in CA) do not like them. She probably has a case, so she needs to consult an attorney and find out for sure.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2007, 10:19 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 75
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by banga
Hi,
I married an US citizen. After 2 years he initiating the divorce because of other woman. Now he is telling me that I signed a prenuptial agreement when we've been preparing documents for my green card. It was about 20 pages and I just signed them all, but I did not know the prenup was there, I did not read it and I do not know what was in it. It was a fraud!
Is this document legal?
The prenup is probably not enforceable. However, I can give no definite answer since it depends on all the facts and the law in your jurisdiction.

In my state (and I suspect in all states), if you did not know you were signing a prenup, it is definitely not enforceable.

Further, the burden of proof is on the party seeking to enforce the agreement, not on the party to be charged.

Please see a local attorney (if you have not already done so).
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