Should I go to court - is it worth it?

Were I in your situation, I'd want as much information as possible before I decided whether or not to take on the court system in Wisconsin. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.) The dispatch log will let you know what was communicated between the officer and station throughout your entire traffic stop, if nothing else. It's probably very likely your license plates and driver's license were run to check for any outstanding warrants, to validate your driver's license and the ownership of the car at the very least. The officer will have let dispatch know immediately the reason for the stop. Hopefully, that should be nothing more than is stated on your ticket.

Just a head's up here: The next time you're pulled over in Wisconsin, the points usuallty assigned for the particular violation can be doubled. Are you aware that if you accumulate 12-30 points in the next 12 months, your license can be revoked for 6 months? Check this out: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers.../gdlpoints.htm. You can also find more information on the FAQ tab on the site. Just a little more information for you.

I can't tell you what to do. (I won't.) That's your choice. I can say, however, as I did above: were I in your situation, contemplating contesting the ticket, I'd want to be as sure as I possibly could that I had all facts in hand well in advance. Should your particular officer decide to appear in court, you'll at least be prepared.

Let us know how this turns out, please. Good luck you.

Oh dear god. "taking on the Wisconsin court system"?? My dear, he ISN'T fighting a felony DUI charge, being charged with involuntary manslaughter, or battling a racist hate crime. Listen carefully: HE GOT AN $85 TRAFFIC TICKET. Pause a moment for *Perspective* to infiltrate your mind. There. Better?


As a person who takes law seriously enough to invest in not only graduate school to study it, but also law school, I am offended at the level of rampant misinformation being tossed out in this thread. Absolutely NONE of the concerns I addressed below regarding the lawfulness of these reponses was addressed in the least. Only a restatement of misleading information. But, NO reply whatsoever to my questions regarding the unlawful nature of the statements being offered as "police officer attested" to. Absolutely unbelievable.

To the poor young man who simply wanted to know if the cops could charge him with additional charges if he appears in court to contest his ticket: The REALITY IS---there ARE no other reports. What you received is a ticket/traffic citation. It is, as a matter of law, UNLAWFUL for the officer to ADD to, change, or write ANOTHER citation/ticket AFTER you leave the premise. For him to do so means you would appear in court WITHOUT knowing the charges against you--and would be unable, therefore, to prepare an adequate defense. Please read my entire posting below which explains WHY what I am telling you is accurate---note as well that the poster suggesting you "see IF additional reports were made" and then amended it to say "Get a dispatch log" has not offered a single comment substantiating that position as a matter of law. You are being given so much wrong information it astounds me. From being told you can "choose not to appear", depending on the severity of the charge, to being told DISPATCH LOGS are public record---you are being fed a dose of dangerously incorrect Feldmanesque "opinion".


As I explained at great length below, the dispatch LOGS ( NOT REPORTS) are audio tapes that do NOT fall under the realm of public information for the reasons I stated. Were you to attempt to get a copy of said audio log without a subpoena, you would be wasting your time. Why you would even WANT to hear the officer call in your tag number, vehicle description etc. (since it *IS* on your ticket) is beyond me. Also, from merely a logistical standpoint---obtaining a copy of the audio log is NOT a probability even if it WERE public record. No police department has the manpower to spend literally HOURS sifting through recordings to listen for YOUR traffic stop. It isn't going to happen. A better question to ask might be WHY would you WANT it in the first place? How would THAT help in your defense for a traffic stop when you FREELY ADMIT you were violating several laws?? YOU weren't charged with felony DUI--you were charged with what is, quite possibly, the lightest charge and fine possible. To be informed is one thing. To be ridiculous is another.

I would ask the person giving you this misinformation on this board to explain where they get their information. Ask them to provide what "other documents" are available and ask them WHAT information would be included in them that would help with your defense. I clearly asked, but as you can see, my question went unheeded. Where a poster gets their information is critical and can offer the person reading it an idea of its legitimacy.

I am NOT an attorney. I have a Master of Science degree in Criminal Justice with a specialization in Criminal Law. I am currently a law student, working on my law degree. This is precisely WHY I do not, for the most part, answer questions in other areas that do not pertain to my (already completed) education and specialization. The answer to your question is easily found in material covered in the first year of graduate school, studying criminal law, a point I passed two years ago. Although I have never received a traffic citation in my life, I was certainly required to know rather exhaustively what traffic stops entail, including precedent setting case law.

With regards to your Freedom of Information requests-(i.e. dispatch logs)--also another question covered the first year in classes such as Civil Liability which teaches what police officers can and cannot do while acting under color of the law as well as what records are requisite and what records are included under the Freedom of Information Act.

Take the above qualifications into consideration while weighing the accuracy of the information you have been given. Also, ask other posters who offer DIFFERENT suggestions than I have, to outline what THEIR qualifications are to be answering questions in this manner. Anyone who has a legitimate basis for answers aside from whimsical opinion can and will provide their specific qualifications to the same.

I am not offering you my opinion. I am explaining to you what is and what is NOT lawful regarding these types of stops and the defense that can be offered for them. Obviously, this is not legal advice---merely accurate legal INFORMATION.

To assume the other information offered in this thread is true will be to your detriment. You cannot merely "choose" not to go to court "depending on the severity of the offense". You also cannot simply expect to be handed a copy of dispatch logs that do not fall under the Freedom of Information Act or public record. As I explained below, at times, sensitive medical information or personal information is transmitted over these dispatch air waves---to state anyone can walk in and peruse the logs is clearly unconstitutional in that it has the potential to violate someone else's right to privacy under the law.

Just for fun, I suggest you CALL your local law enforcement office and TELL THEM you received an $85 ticket and want to contest it in court. Would they PLEASE provide you with a copy of the AUDIO TAPE where the officer CALLED IN YOUR TRAFFIC STOP so you can have "as much information as possible in preparing your defense."

I would give my butter statue of Marty Feldman's eyeball in all its creamy whomping goodness to hear THAT conversation.

Work with your dad on this one, if both of you are considering contesting the citation. If you're worried that something may come 'out of left field' during your hearing, do what you can to inform yourself first. If, after that, you're still not sure, discuss with your father whether or not the 2 of you need to consult with an attorney. (I'm not certain that's really necessary, considering the smount of the fine, but your dad can help with that decision as well.) The cost of the ticket is irrelevant..I understand you want to try and improve your driving record, but you're considering going against a court system. You're also still considered a minor. You're also involved with one of several states that have cracked down on their laws in recent years .. especially on younger drivers .. and it may not be as easy as you think. That's why I posted the link.

I've posted facts. And a certain amount of experience. Thankfully (as a parent,) my child and her room mate were of legal age when they encountered the same legal system you're facing not that long ago. The laws have been tightened since then and Wisconsin isn't alone in finally putting some "teeth" in them. Call the PD in the city you were pulled over in to inquire if you can obtain copies of records in preparation for your case. Certain states, do in fact consider the dispatch log public record available either to an attorney or an individual representing themselves in an active case, hence my previous posting of "If." Personally, I think the responsibility of driving might hit home a bit more if you saw the circumstances surrounding your vehicle stop. (Just an opinion.) It's a given the portion of the logs you require will only pertain to you.

I do have a suggestion here: If, after doing your "homework," your dad is still wanting to fight this one in court, make a deal with him. If he appears with you in court (I believe he'll have to anyway) and can't convince the judge to reduce the fine and reinstate your driving record for the state, he pays the fine. If not, you pay it. Regardless, you'll be EXTREMELY careful each time you start your car. (Parents just love it when you "schmooze" them, but this time, it's a promise you keep. When you have kids of your own someday, you'll understand just how hard it is to hand them a set of car keys.)

Good luck. Stay focused, as I am. (My final suggestion.) If you have any more questions, you can contact me via 'private message' above, should you like. For the record, my daughter and room mate are dubious you'll prevail here, but as they say "Go for it." After, of course, you get as many facts as you can.

*Note: References (besides my own) in my posts in this particular case consist of over 45 years' experience of 2 St Louis, Chicago retired police officers and the police department in the city I currently reside in now, serving a population of over 3/4 million residents. As I stated before, each jurisdiction has its own different policy and procedure.

Asking for legal substantiation or disagreeing with the legitimacy of another answer posted on this forum *IS* on point. Certainly we are allowed to disagree with the import of other postings ( as opposed to personally attacking someone or their life away from this forum). BIG difference.

The relevant comments you made are the basis for the following discussion questions:

1. WHAT INFORMATION DOES A DISPATCH LOG HAVE that is RELEVANT to the defense of a traffic ticket?

ANSWER: NONE

2. What information does a dispatch log have that is NOT on the ticket itself?

ANSWER: NONE

3. Name a SINGLE state that has provided even once a COPY of the audio dispatch LOG to someone facing a cheap traffic ticket.

ANSWER: NONE

4. Name a single state which gives the defendant the option of "choosing not to appear" in response to a traffic ticket , given the "severity of the offense".

ANSWER: NONE

5. Give an example of a traffic infraction which the officer deems "more severe" that would deny someone the option of paying the ticket before they ever go to court and would require them to appear.

ANSWER: NONE

6. What "other reports" could possibly have been generated and what is their relevance to the posters situation (i.e. defense of a traffic citation).

ANSWER: NONE

These are ALL statements you offered.

No reply? I didn't think so. The answer is simply NONE.

It is utterly reprehensible that you would allow this young man to fear something "coming out of left field". The question then for you, since you believe it is possible--WHAT COULD COME out of "left field"? Give an example.

For your information, even in trials for serious offenses, there is a little thing called DISCOVERY. Each side is required by LAW to divulge what information they have for and against the defendant. For them to "bring something out of left field" in something as insignificant as a traffic ticket ( when he already admitted---she let him off easy) means the judge and the officers are not complying with the Constitution which grants the accused time to prepare a defense. Utterly outrageous to suggest anything to the contrary.

For you to suggest in your posting that this young man should be "prepared for something from left field" is egregiously and unlawfully incorrect.

Asking you to prove legal basis for your statements is NOT a personal attack. It is reasonable to expect--this IS a discussion forum.

I will ask you to stick with the subject at hand and assist the posters answers to their questions, as I am. I am focusing on the questions asked and the person who asked them, rather than disrupt this forum and obscure the original subject and person. I am simply offering alternative suggestions here.

NOTE TO ADMIN: I am abiding by the terms of use and conduct you expect on this forum.

While he obviously is only interested in the logs that pertain to him, it being a "given" he is entitled to them is incorrect.

If John Q. Public is entitled to a copy of the public record since it is, obviously, public record, this means that ANYONE is entitled to ANY portion of the public record. This means, if it is public record, either you or I could waltz in and get a copy.

Listen carefully. THERE IS NO LAW that says John Q. Public is entitled to ONLY HIS PORTION of records that the government is not required to maintain. Any law he has a titlement to receive is PUBLIC RECORD---and he has the same unrestricted access to it that you or I would have.

Now, since dispatch logs are NOT public record because of the privacy issues that come into play, he DOES have a right to the part that pertains to him --with one caveat. With a SUBPOENA. Period.

To state it is a given he can have for the taking the part of the record that pertains to him is incorrect. ANYONE can have ANY part of the public record.
FREEDOM of INFORMATION Act guarantees John Q. Public unrestricted access to PUBLIC RECORD---not merely those that pertain to him. Important distinction.

For things such as dispatch logs, you cannot have free access--and the part that "pertains to him" may be obtained by establishing relevance and need (i.e. a subpoena).

I don't know how many other ways to say it.

Thank you GentleGrace for your help, I don't believe I need any further help, as everything she has said was extremely helpful and came from a reliable source - thanks for your time!

http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dls/docs/...records805.pdf


A final suggestion to contact your police department and ask if you can obtain records under the premises as stated by the Wisconsin constitution. The Freedom of Information Act is not necessarily required. Certain law enforcement agencies do in fact act on requests, depending on the location, as they recognize themselves as being included in the classifications stated on this site.

Or not. It is of course your choice. Again, I've posted opinions and suggestions, and will stand by them. This is a public forum, designed to pass along information, and I believe I have done only that. You asked a simple question; I gave a simple answer. What you choose to do with anything provided by anyone is, of course, your perogative. I am a federally licensed, working professional with references that will need to be requested from any one of a number of federal agencies, should anyone demand to see them. *Any personal and professional friendships I happen to have are irrelevant on this forum, but I've found their years of experience both valulable and very interesting. (I don't happen to believe that's the purpose of this forum.) My itinerary to date on this string? 06-22-2007, 03:25 PM (my first call to my PD);Yesterday, 07:13 AM; Yesterday, 10:34 PM,Today, 08:51 AM, to be precise. As recently as moments ago, yet another city police operator at my non emergency police number (which works 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week) answered, "Yes. It's public record." Their words, not mine. "Yes, you can have a copy of it with proper procedure." I simply asked (each time I called) "If I'm involved in even a minor traffic stop and I thought the dispatch log could be helpful in my case, can I get a copy of it ... even if I don't have an attorney and representing myself?" The last operator became a little exasperated by having to repeat the same answer again and again. Whether they've ever done this before is completely irrelevant. Whether or not they can and will is. I'd welcome the feedback from anyone asking that question (in its proper context) citing exactly this situation in its present tense, not previous. I think the responses would be pretty interesting personally, if in fact the question is asked correctly, and in its proper context.*

Good luck with your situation. I've offered the last of the suggestions I have here.

P.S. Once again, my exact quote: "Work with your dad on this one, if both of you are considering contesting the citation. If you're worried that something may come 'out of left field' during your hearing, do what you can to inform yourself first. If, after that, you're still not sure, discuss with your father whether or not the 2 of you need to consult with an attorney. (I'm not certain that's really necessary, considering the smount of the fine, but your dad can help with that decision as well.)"

Freedom of Information Act is NOT the only law that provides access to PUBLIC RECORDS. You are missing the point.

The POINT is ( once again ) access through ANY legislation is only assured as it pertains to those records the government is REQUIRED to MAINTAIN (i.e. birth, death, marriage, divorce, tax, etc). This delightful web site tells HOW to GET information that already IS part of the public record.

It does not, at any point, suggest that the public is entitled to records such as dispatch logs, that the government is NOT required to maintain.

Great site.

Not sure how it proves that dispatch logs are available under ANY of the MANY laws that provide access to *public records*.

To the young man who asked the question--I believe I understand why the officer was willing to overlook a few things you mentioned regarding your "stop" and why she ticketed you for, quite possibly, the least infraction. You are an articulate, obviously educated young man with a respectful attitude. That speaks well of not only you, but your parents as well.

If you think of it, come back and post after you've gone to court--let me know how it goes. You will be surprised how *non confrontational* and almost routine the procedure seems.

I MUST ask, since you volunteered this tidbit.

Did you REALLY call not one, but two retired police officers on a Sunday, (as well as your local police department) and ASK the answer to this question?? (At 12:43 AM, no less!!! My goodness!!)

That, simply put, redefines friendship.

I also MUST know....WHICH part of your posting did they AGREE with? The part that said he is to search for "other reports", the part where a surprise might come from 'left field' in court, the part where he is to ASK for an AUDIO TAPE COPY of the fleeting seconds of dispatch tape to defend himself against a pittance of a traffic ticket, or the part where, this was my PERSONAL favorite--the part where a police officer has the discretion to tell someone "depending on the severity of the offense for which a traffic ticket was written" they may CHOOSE not to appear in court??

However, another funny wonderment to contemplate. Remember I stated it was a logistical nightmare for a police department to spare the time to sit down and sift through hours of audio tape to find the one particular exchange that pertained to the posters original stop? Read this:

"“Communications audio recordings are recorded in real time and are not separated. The separation of the radio dispatch audio recordings would alter the original format and the integrity of the recording.” Recording the tapes on separate channels would “require research and alter the original documents,” which is “not provided for under the Open Records Act.”

Did you ever stop to think that such an audio log could be inadmissible or at least, challenged in court since, as the officer really DID point out in the above quote from this web site, they ARE altered?

http://ag.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/378B63...0/05ORD230.doc

This is from a "real life" court case in which a woman expected to be granted access to all of these records NOT contained in any freedom of information "TYPE" act. Since, as I stated, these records are NOT requisite, the public is NOT assured of access to them. To come here and say that TWO retired police officers supported that there was first of all RELEVANCE in the dispatch log, and secondly, suggest this young man ASK for a copy of something so incredibly time consuming to defend himself against an insignificant traffic ticket is laughable (not to be confused with "in so much laughter here".) In case you didn't understand all the significance of the above link, it is obvious police departments go to great lengths to keep dispatch logs and other internal communications private for the same reason I have stated repeatedly--sensitive information may be released to unscrupulous parties.

I challenge you to find a single police department that will voluntarily (without subpoena) make available to John Q. Public a copy of said audio log to take to TRAFFIC COURT with him to talk down a judge from a cheap ticket. If indeed, as you say, laws "differ" from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, it shouldn't take any time at all to find a single one to support your opinion--since, after all, two police officers already readily agreed, after a weekend collaborative effort to answer this question.

Amazing.

I am going to call several police departments tomorrow, long distance, all over the country and ask what their procedure is for obtaining a copy of the dispatch log for me to defend myself against a speeding ticket.

Stay tuned. Results of said conversations forthcoming.